February 29, 2024

FV 3: How B2B companies should spend marketing dollars | Liam Moroney

The FounderVideo Podcast Episode 3 with Liam Moroney.

In this conversation, Liam Moroney, founder of Storybook Marketing, discusses the future of demand generation and marketing budget allocation in B2B companies.

Liam highlights the rise of demand gen as a buzzword on LinkedIn and the need for clarity in its definition. Liam also explores the influence of B2C marketing on B2B marketing and the challenges of applying B2C tactics in a B2B context. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the specific problems a business is trying to solve and aligning marketing efforts accordingly. Additionally, Liam discusses the misallocation of marketing budgets and the need for a balanced measurement framework. The conversation covers the importance of identifying the ideal customer profile (ICP) and narrowing down the target audience. It also discusses making educated guesses on the ICP and how it evolves over time. The conversation then shifts to the strategy of creating videos in nature on LinkedIn and the workflow for producing them.


- Demand generation has become a buzzword in B2B marketing, but its definition is often unclear and varies from company to company.

- B2B marketing can learn from B2C marketing, but it's important to consider the differences between the two, such as the role of sales teams and the complexity of B2B buying cycles.

- Many B2B companies misallocate their marketing budgets by focusing too much on demand capture and lead generation efforts, rather than building brand awareness and educating their audience.

- Effective marketing budget allocation starts with understanding the specific problems a business is trying to solve and aligning marketing efforts accordingly.

- While attribution is important, it's crucial to recognize that not everything in marketing can be directly attributed to revenue. Some efforts, such as podcasts, are more about brand awareness and affinity. Identifying the ideal customer profile (ICP) is crucial for effective marketing.

- Narrowing down the target audience allows for focused and effective marketing efforts.- Making educated guesses on the ICP is necessary for early-stage companies without sufficient data.

- The ICP evolves over time, and it's important to adapt and expand the target audience as the business grows.

- Creating videos in nature on LinkedIn can help differentiate oneself and attract attention.

- Having an efficient workflow for creating LinkedIn videos is important, but authenticity and creativity should not be sacrificed.


00:00 Introduction and Background

02:24 The Rise of Demand Generation in B2B Marketing

06:01 Influence of B2C Marketing on B2B Marketing

10:43 The Future of Demand Capture and Marketing Budget Allocation

13:08 Misallocation of Marketing Budgets in B2B Companies

22:37 Determining Marketing Budget Allocation

29:11 Ensuring Alignment for Execution Excellence

35:47 The Obsession with Tech and Tools for ROI Attribution

42:37 Understanding the Audience and ICP in Demand Gen

43:59 Identifying the Ideal Customer Profile (ICP)

45:16 Narrowing Down the Target Audience

46:10 Making Educated Guesses on the ICP

47:28 ICP Evolution and Expanding Target Audience

48:52 Creating Videos in Nature on LinkedIn

53:21 Workflow for Creating LinkedIn Videos


FounderVideo,Founder Video,Will Martin,Demand Generation,B2B Marketing Strategies,Marketing Budget Allocation,B2C vs B2B Marketing,Brand Awareness in B2B,Ideal Customer Profile (ICP),Target Audience for B2B,Misallocation of Marketing Budgets,Marketing Attribution,LinkedIn Video Content,Educated Guesses on ICP,ICP Evolution,Marketing Alignment,Demand Capture,B2B Sales Cycles,Content Marketing in B2B,Video Marketing Strategy,Authenticity in Marketing


Will (00:01.694)

So we're here for another episode of the founder video podcast and today we are with Liam Moroni founder of storybook marketing and as you see that helps with running demand gen programs on in B2B, of course and We here to talk about a lot of stuff right? We're here to talk about demand gen The future of B2B marketing and most importantly, how can B2B companies allocate their marketing budgets better? smarter

and more efficiently, right? So yeah, the first question that I have to, well, first of all, welcome. It's a pleasure to have you. And the first question that I wanted to ask you, it's, yeah, I can tell already. I wanted to ask you, and this is a question that I'm already kind of asking to everyone that I'm trying to bring on the podcast, and it's who is the infancy, right? Who is Liam Moroney in this case?

Liam Moroney (00:38.657)

Thank you for having me. I'm excited. This is going to be fun.

Will (00:56.81)

And why should people know about your past professionally and personally if you want to, to understand what you're doing today at Story book or any person that you are today as a professional most importantly.

Liam Moroney (01:06.977)

Sure, I'll give you a bit of a background. So like you mentioned, right now, co-founder of a demand generation agency, but prior to that, and very much what informed that decision, was I spent about 15 years in-house in tech startups, and about 12 of those years have been in demand generation and marketing leadership positions. So I've been in companies from 50 people to 500people from series A to series E, and so I've very much lived in the startup world, and a lot of my expertise has really been in

building and rebuilding demand generation programs, which very much is sort of, at least from my perspective, is a skillset that is not as common. There's a lot of people who can take over a program. There's not a whole lot who can retool one. So that very much became the reason that we shifted into delivering this as a service to clients.

Will (01:55.358)

Love that. Sorry, I just muted my mic to avoid any sort of background noise. OK, so let's start with that. Let's start with Demand Gen, right? Because these days, it seems like it's become a buzzword on LinkedIn.And everyone is talking about the ManGen and demand capture. And sometimes the land is not even clear. Some people, I think, they don't even understand what does the difference, right? So why do you think that the ManGen has low key became such a buzzword on LinkedIn? And what do you think this says about the current state of B2B buying? especially given your experience.


Liam Moroney (02:24.589)

really, it's a really interesting question. So I, I've been doing demand gen itself with that specific name for probably, probably about seven or eight years, I would say. And so it's interesting to see that the last two years has been this like sudden surge of everybody talking about demand gen.And I think what's funny is that the definition of demand gen, it was unclear then it's probably even less clear now because it, it used to be a tactic, and then it kind of became a go to market


people aren't sure if it's a job or if it's a collection of people's jobs rolled in together. And it differs, it really does differ from company to company. But I think the reason that we're seeing it is, in a lot of ways, demand gen was being looked at as kind of like an antidote to the problem that was going on in B2B. Like a lot of the problems that are in B2B, they're still very much there, but they became really felt over the last couple of years. And the main reason is because they stopped working. So it's funny that


When you go way back, I went to college for marketing, like marketing theory is something that I very much am passionate about. And yet when I got into tech, it felt like everything we do is counterintuitive to the fundamentals of what marketing is supposed to actually do. And what I mean by that is almost everything we're doing, and the reason Demand Gen has become so popular is because we're really conversion focused, we're direct response focused, we're hyper measurement focused.


And it colors everything into how can I get people to do as few things as possible? How can I get them into my system as quickly as possible?And how can I try and measure everything that they're doing? And those three things are not how marketing works and generally never has, because it takes along time to educate people about who you are. It takes a long time to develop brand recognition alone. It takes an even longer amount of time to get people to understand what your brand does, and it takes a very long time to get them to think of your brand.


ahead of other brands. And yet, the tactics that we've all been doing have been, let's release one ebook, we'll put a form behind it, we'll get them to fill out that one form, and then we'll hand them over to an SDR team, and they're gonna do outreach and try and close a deal. Which means the only way that could work is if you got really lucky, which is kind of what happened a lot of the time, the math just sort of worked in the favor of it, like get a thousand leads, you might get four people out of that list, might be qualified.


Liam Moroney (04:49.129)

but four people is four people. Problem is that four now becomes three and it becomes two and it becomes one and the math is getting harder and harder and harder and people are getting more and more suspicious. And then the other side of it is you're hoping that someone else has done the work of educating them, which is never a good place to be. And so anyway, the long story short is, I think Demand gen started to be kind of like a, like aRenaissance of marketing and B2B in a little bit of a time because suddenly people were getting excited about, well, what if we did,


marketing where we educated people. What if we ungated stuff and gave information away just so that they consume it? And a lot of this was great theory. The problem with it, I think, is that theory dies really quickly when it meets the reality of a B2B organization. And that's the hard part. That's the part that we struggle with a lot. And that's the part we work with clients a lot on. One thing to say, why don't we just give everything away? But then suddenly you're faced with the reality that all your leads are gonna plummet to zero.


and that's a different conversation to have to bring to a sales team, to bring to your leadership. So it's kind of like, there's a very active conversation about it, but how you actually then change the existing legacy program, I think is where the hard work really happens.


Will (06:01.834)

Yeah, the structure the incentives the how people are led, right?Like everything is it's changing from one model to another and I think it can be scary at times when you think about Oh, let's put it all out for free and like it's I get how you know, a lot of B2B leaders might think How I'm gonna put it like we we've been working on this white paper and you know We we put money behind it just so that people can consume it because we think it's valuable enough And now you're telling me I gotta put one of these a week onLinkedIn for free


like, well, it's, it's how it is. And the thing is like, it only takes one company to do it properly for you to be out market, so to speak, or like out of the competition, if you're not willing to be in that game and sure, it might feel like an uphill at the beginning, but I think for any long-term and most importantly, for B2B buyers is the good thing and right thing to do.Cause, um, we just cannot.


ignore that all of the buyers have now way more power and have access to all of the information that they before once had to talk to sales for, right? And to get that information. So, and related to this, I wanted to ask you, do you think there are some similarities or some influence? And if so, which ones from the B2C marketing world and the sophistication of how consumers buy in like Amazon or Netflix or just


Liam Moroney (07:10.369)


Will (07:29.15)

everywhere in the consumer world with e-commerce and whatnot. Do you think that has affected B2B marketing in some way? And if so, how?

Liam Moroney (07:36.209)

I think in there's definitely overlap. I think I'm always a little cautious of the, let's look at B2C to see what B2B should be doing because there's some important differences between B2C and B2B that need to be factored in. And the biggest one for the most part is that in B2C, there is no sales team. The job of B2C marketing is to be the sales team. It's to get people togo into a store or onto a website and order something and buy it.

So a lot of the motivation, firstly, that means that the budgets that in B2B would normally be hiring a large sales organization is now large advertising budgets because that is the sales organization. So that part's really important. Now, having said that, where it does overlap very closely with B2B is in more self-serve PLG type motions because in that case, it definitely is marketing's job to educate and drive them into a user flow where they actually self-select and self sign up.

So that part is probably where there is the most overlap and there's a lot of the same tactics can work. I think when it comes into the more sales motion selling cycles or where upmarket or larger deal cycles, there's less. And even though I think you could make an argument that, well, a considered purchase is a considered purchase. There's a big difference betweenI'm gonna buy a $60,000 piece of SaaS software for my company and I'm gonna buy a $60,000 electric vehicle.

They're both considered purchases, but how you convince someone is completely different. The amount of people involved in that decision is completely different. The way you buy it is completely different. So I'm always a little cautious because it's easy to look at B2C and go, well, they're doing the more fun marketing. They're doing the more creative marketing. And they aref or the most part. They're also using more technologies. I think unlike B2B, the spending in B2C, I read only yesterday is increasing and is higher this year than it was last year.

So the budget squeezes that they're seeing aren't necessarily as tight because they often are very direct response. There is a very clear return on ad spend in ways that there just isn't on a lot of B2B. So I think there's things to be learned. The most important thing I think is that B2B does one of the most counterintuitive things to B2C, which is everybody tries to look the same, which makes absolutely no sense in marketing. You go to most websites, they have the same layout.

Liam Moroney (09:58.665)

They have a tagline, they have a screen with a UX shot on it.They've got a couple of logos and a couple of G2 badges and they all, their ads look the same. The messaging sounds the same. And if there's one thing that you know about marketing, it's that the job is to stand out and be remembered and you're not going to do that by looking and sounding like everybody else. So I think from a creative side, there's a ton should be learned from B2C. I think what the actual end result of those actions is depends on exactly what you're trying to do because

Marketing's job in a lot of B2B is to make the sales cycle easier.It's to have had more people have heard of them so that they can shorten those conversations. It's to educate the audience, to bring them in, but it's not necessarily their job to sell at the end of the.


Will (10:43.834)

And we cannot, we cannot forget. I mean, Adam Robinson was talkingabout this the other day on a clip. Well, a couple of weeks ago, I think he wassaying that the best, um, sales rocksters are not gonna follow the route of SDRto AE as the, you know, probably would have done in the past. And these daysit's more so like as a salesperson, how can I become the best creator or themost valuable person in the company by leveraging content and, and


content-driven events like whether that is webinars or even tradeshows or Life life as you've done on your LinkedIn as well, right all that kindof stuff is gonna differentiate a lot Salespersons, but at the same time thoughis as you were saying right the way you buy a 60,000 solution In B2B is waydifferent than the way you buy a Tesla Of course, and I made this point in avideo as well. Like the difference is like high buy at Salesforce high buy atAmazon


Completely different, of course, not even comparable, right? Youmentioned one point before, so that's really interesting. And the emotionalside of things as well, that I think we can learn from B2C. Kyrian, the CMO ofSabit was talking about the other day on LinkedIn in a post. He was making somepredictions on 2026 and whatnot. He was talking about how segmentation in B2Bis going to become more and more about emotion and how this set of accountsfeel about our product and why are


Liam Moroney (11:43.445)



Will (12:12.472)

actually driving the buying committee to take a certain decisionin a certain amount of time all that stuff super interesting but I want to getback to one point that you mentioned before when we were talking about themansion it's like


a lot of the old playbooks are about capturing a demand that'sbeen already created, right, or relying on what other companies have educatedyour time on, right. And of course, that's not coming from a good place, Ithink, and it's wrong to think that is a good way to make sales. So I want toget your thoughts on that and kind of like, um,


What do you think is the future of companies that are still tryingto capture demand in our so to speak, in sales led growth motions that are allabout doing those Legion forums and running this gated content and whatnot.What is the timeline that you see there and what are the patterns?


Liam Moroney (13:08.001)

I'm going to give you a very cynical answer, which is I don'tthink it's going to change as quickly or as radically as a lot of people wantit to as much as I want it to be to be marketing does not change quickly. Andit hasn't actually changed that much in a decade, even though a lot of peoplebelieve that the model is outdated, the belief that the model is failing. Theindustry as a whole changes quite slowly. And the reason is because


You know, people like us talking on LinkedIn, we'd love to giveourselves lots of credit, but we're talking to a relatively. I don't want tocall it an echo chamber, but to a point, it sometimes can be, you know, at theend of the day, VCs influence an enormous amount about how a company should bemeasured because they're ultimately making a lot of the decisions. Aboutwhether or not to give any money to them. So that leads a lot of that boardmembers are people who've very much been in the industry for a long time. So,you know, like we have to be a little bit.


humble and say a couple of LinkedIn posts aren't going to convincethem that 20 years of industry data needs to be completely upended. So that'sjust not going to go away. But what I do think is happening is there is achange in the conversation and it is starting to bleed in. So like people likeyou know I know they're controversial a lot but the Gartners and the Forrestersthey have influence when they decide to take on board what they're hearing andthey start to change it is going to have a knock on effect.


the startups who are leading the charge, a lot of the companiesthat we all see on LinkedIn who are doing really exciting marketing aredefinitely influencing the bigger companies as well. So it is happening in anorganic way, but to say the MQL is gonna be dead in five years would benonsense. To say that marketing isn't gonna be judged on lead generation isjust not realistic for anyone north of maybe 50 employees. Like it gets reallyhard because while we may


complain about how difficult it really is to show marketing ROI,someone's going to ask for it. It's going to be a requirement. Whether or notit's a really intellectually honest way of doing it, it's going to be arequirement. You're going to have to prove that you were doing your job in someeffective way. And I think the most realistic thing that's happening is thatwhile we're seeing a lot of success with clients is not trying to break downtheir entire measurement model. That's a politically big battle.


Liam Moroney (15:29.629)

What's very doable is to start to show the problems in theexisting model. So instead of saying, hey, look, we're gonna educate you on thefact that realistically of all the MQLs that you targeted us to generate, maybe10% of them were real MQLs. Now, it's impossible to get that number torepresent the entirety. We're not asking you to lower the target today, butwe're asking you to start to explore the opportunity that maybe there aredifferent kinds of MQLs, and maybe we should start to report on them separately.

and then monitor that for a few quarters and see if it proves thetheory. And if it starts to prove the theory, then we can start to change thenumbers. Change happens slowly. It happens individually at a company level, andit happens kind of at a big macro level. And unfortunately, much as we'd loveto give ourselves the credit, the LinkedIn narrative is what is motivating it,but it is not what it is changing.


Will (16:19.47)

I think you made such a great point right there. Startups that aredoing the exciting marketing and are doing what a lot of LinkedIn, EcoChamber,influencers, so to speak, are talking about are leading that change. And it'sfunny, I can mention a lot of them, right? Like there's a bunch of startupsdoing this stuff in a really great way. And it's awesome to see and even, youknow.


I might I mean part of my goal is to try to bring in some foundersof those companies to if they have the time to talk about that, but oh myquestion is don't you think that hints at a pattern in the overalldecentralization of the world and I don't want to get off topic here, but Likeyou were saying big companies if you are anywhere north from above 50 employeesThe change is gonna take a lot of time for sure Now we got a thing


B2B buyers, where are they buying mostly? And look, this is kindof like my take, not necessarily backed on data, but where are they're buying?Are you actually going ahead and


Hey, let's take Salesforce or let, let's take HubSpot or let'stake, you know, whatever other big software, uh, giant that's been in the gamefor so long, or let's actually pick this new tool that has been in the game forfive years, but actually caters to us so good that we cannot help, but chooseit. Right. I think, and we were talking about this before hitting record,right? Like the, the personalization of software and how more unique is thatbecoming?


Don't you think that the power of startups are gonna be able to, Iwouldn't say lead, but at least accelerate that change?


Liam Moroney (18:03.913)

I do think so. I think startups are always the exciting kids doingthe exciting stuff that no one else is allowed to and no one else has thebravery to. That said, I do think that the one thing that is worth alwaysunpacking is what influences people like company to company and industry toindustry and persona to persona is very different. And the biggest problem Ithink, and I've fallen into this and I thank my co-founder for kicking me outof this a little bit,


You mentioned earlier about emotion leading the charge in buying.And that that's true to a degree, but I think as marketers, we overestimatewhat non-marketers do and in people in startup, we overestimate what people inbig companies do. So give you two examples. One is that, and I've said this aload of times myself that we buy with emotion and we justify with logic,marketers might do that.


We buy because we love the marketing of the brand. We look atstartups and we think their marketing's great. We open their emails and clicktheir ads in a way that finance people aren't going to do, that ops peoplearen't going to do. In a lot of people, ops people, product personas, they'renot necessarily buying on emotion, they're buying on very clear logic of thisthing has to be reliable. The amount of times we've sold into companies thatwere finance buyers, their biggest concern is are you gonna be around in fiveyears time?


So they don't care how exciting your marketing is, they care abouthow stable your company is. So like it differs from person to person because ifyou're buying a piece of software for a 10,000 person company, you need to besure that the change management that's required to implement this technologyisn't gonna have to be undone in two years time when you run out of VC money.So like the incentives and what they care about are very different. And so Ithink what people trust is often not what we want to believe that is like.


I'm sure you've seen it. There's a ton of conversation, a raggingon how no one cares about G2 reviews and the Magic Quadrant and Forresterreports. Yeah, they do. They do. Some people do. Maybe not for the rightreasons, but you know, we all know that saying nobody ever got fired for buyingIBM. It's the same reason. Like you're gonna buy something, you're gonna putyour political capital on the line. You're gonna wanna make sure it's beenvetted by somebody else. And there are buyers who will say,


Liam Moroney (20:24.565)

Gartner's done the work for me. That's a safe thing, put my namebehind. Is it intellectually the right way to go about it? Probably not. Arethere better ways? But not everybody is willing to go all out and be theinnovator and champion of brand new technology that hasn't been tested.


Will (20:41.29)

which is actually, you made such a great point, which is actuallythe underlying reason in the core as to why MQL is not going to disappear infive years. Like it's exactly that. Cause not everyone actually just only a few are willing to innovate and to be disruptive and to do all these stuff that ithasn't been done. So, so much in corporate and that in B2B of course takes longer to, to change. Right. Which is, which is okay. It's fine. 

Liam Moroney (21:05.117)

And it's not to say there's no bravery in corporate because it's definitely not true. But I think in the exact same way that we've got the product life cycle where you've got the innovators, you've got the early adopters, you've got the early majority. Same thing is true for people in their careers. Some people aren't looking to make waves, they're looking to clock out at five o'clock and good for them. Like there's nothing at all wrong with that.I think the hope is that there are enough innovators who are looking to try and get a better way to have an MQL so that the rest of the industry will go

Will (21:08.291)


Will (21:20.942)

Thanks for watching!


Liam Moroney (21:34.993)

let's try and adopt that in the right way at the right time. Butit like, so thank God for the innovators, but let's not judge anyone who isn'tbecause not everyone needs to be.


Will (21:46.13)

No, 100%, 100%. And it's completely fine, I mean.


The world runs itself because of innovators, but in the secondorder of consequence, because there are people that are not innovators that arewilling to be led, so to speak, by innovators, right? And to implement thechanges as you, as you just said, at the right time and the right way. Sodefinitely great. Let's move on though. We were talking before you were talkingbefore, and when we're talking about demand, and demand capture, the gatedcontent and the, the forums and whatnot. That speaks, I think.


how B2B marketing budgets, some of them are being incorrectlyspent. And where do you see that? Like, since you have that overview now andworking with clients and whatnot, where do you see that most B2B companies areincorrectly, quote unquote, spending their marketing patches in 2024?


Liam Moroney (22:37.629)

I think it's, and obviously the answer is always, it depends andit's different for each different company, but I think there's a where peopleare spending money wrong and there's a how people are spending money wrong. Thewhere is.


Like I read a post this morning that summarizes really well, but Ithink there was a report from Hockey Stack came out a couple of days ago, andthey were showing the state of sort of like paid media, and budgets were nearly50% LinkedIn and nearly 50% Google. And then there was like a tiny sliver forjust about everybody else. And that is surprising, but not shocking. Like Ithink it's, Google is still consuming.


a concerning amount of budget. And I think that's probably the onethat's easiest to attack because we've come into these conversations wherepeople have said, hey, we've got a paid search program, it's working reallywell. And you're like, great, how much of it is branded keywords and how muchof it is unbranded keywords? And they go, it's all branded keywords. I waslike, okay, you might not actually have the successful program you think youdo, you might just be paying people to come in the door. Like there might notreally be anything that you achieved with that. Now, it's easier said thandone, and you have to...


experiment and turn it off to prove that true. But I mean, youknow, everybody knows the Airbnb story about they turned off all their paidsearch and their sales went up. So, you know, like paid search, especiallythings where you're bidding on your own name, you're essentially running therisk of just paying for an ad to be clicked that would otherwise have beenclicked anyway. And so I think the fact that consumes nearly 50 percent, maybeeven fully at 50 percent of the budget is.


an area that should always be tested and evaluated because it verymuch could be waste and it's easy to validate if that's true. The 50% onLinkedIn makes sense for the reasons that LinkedIn has great targeting.LinkedIn is the better place to do targeting, but it's very expensive and it'svery often being used to generate leads on LinkedIn, as opposed to reaching theaudience, engaging with the audience, educating the audience. And if thatrapport was true,


Liam Moroney (24:40.465)

It implies that what I think I believe is true, most of the budgetis being attributed to lead generation efforts. That's the biggest problembecause firstly, again, to our point, you're essentially trying to grab peopleand hope that you've got enough already done of the hard work before you handthem over to a sales team and more often than not, you haven't. And the otherpart of it is that, is that really the best thing to do when you've got theirattention, to try and get them to fill out a form? And like, just take the mathof lead gen.


You get, let's say, a click-through rate on LinkedIn of 0.5, 0.6%on average, and then you're sending them to a farm where maybe 10% of thosepeople will fill out that form. You've already basically lost 98% of all of thepossible people that you would have been able to reach because you wanted topass them through a very high-friction action. And that's the way of thinkingthat I think is often wrong. Did you...


Did you or did somebody else spend some effort and budget reachingthe audience with a message that they will remember? And I think if you, theanswer is no, then Legion is probably being overspent in it.


Will (25:52.622)

Couldn't agree more. I've been, I mean, as a LinkedIn ads agency,we do a lot of digging in the ads library and it's astonishing. The amount ofcompanies that the only thing they're running is in the best, in it well, andI'm not saying there's a lot of companies, sure, out there, that are doingthought leader ads and video and people-centric and all that stuff. And really,really cool stuff. What you were talking about, which is educating and, andhaving people, like having your time actually know about what you do and whoyou are and why you're better and why you're different and all that stuff.Right.


There's companies doing that, but the vast majority that are doingLinkedIn ads, the most common thing that you see is a gated asset with a formor a sign up or free trial or something like that. Single image, staticcorporate boring, not differentiated, right? Um, actually.


Liam Moroney (26:36.903)



Will (26:41.726)

This is backed by, I mean, Chris Walker said this in a post. Idon't know how accurate it could be, but I kind of trust him. I'm not going tolie. And I think, um, it w it was like around 92% of, uh, the average LinkedInads budget is spent on leadger forms, which is the ad type for, for collectingleads. And it goes to show how, how leadger programs are, are deeply rooted incompanies and how, how much of their, their strategy are, are a part of, right?Um,


Interesting you said one thing that I need to disagree with thatLinkedIn ads are expensive and sure Yeah, they are more than Google but we aretrying to make the argument at least Father really that and not necessarilyfound the video I think like a lot of LinkedIn ads as you see are talking aboutthis that it's sure they're expensive when you do them That way right when youwhen you ground lead you. Yeah


Liam Moroney (27:32.837)

I totally agree. I completely agree. And we very frequentlyrecommend LinkedIn because it is a channel that their audience is very oftenon. I think it comes down to the being led by the ability to target peopleversus the knowledge that those people are actually active on that platform. Weworked with a company where they were targeting a very specific type of productuser, engineering user.


and they were very much able to target them on LinkedIn, they justcould not spend the budget because those people were not active enough onLinkedIn to be able to reach them. So there's a very big difference between theability to target and the presence of your audience on a channel.


Will (28:12.682)

that shouldn't be overlooked at all. You're absolutely right. Andwe've seen that challenge a lot too, with, with certain job titles, certainpositions, certain functions and seniority that you just don't sure. You canfind them, there are, there are users that are, you know, in the, they havetheir own account, but try to like see how much you need to spend and for howlong in order to reach them enough so that they get educated. Right. It's just,might as well go for Google retargeting or combined with Facebook and some ofthe stuff, right. That you can do in order to reach them.


Liam Moroney (28:32.136)



Will (28:41.922)

But yeah, we cannot we cannot Like equate the fact that sure youcan find it, but that doesn't mean that your efforts are gonna, you know Dowhat you're expecting them to do? How can B2B companies get to understand wereand how marketing? budgets should be allocated now that we've talked about, youknow where they're located or misused or Incorrectly spent how they canunderstand first where to put them


depending on their situation.


Liam Moroney (29:13.349)

I think it always starts with what current problem does thisbusiness actually have. And I know starting from being in-house, the sales teamcan very clearly tell you what problems you have because they're the ones whohave to talk to people. And it differs because like we said earlier, you couldbe in a very mature category where your problem is that there's five companiesout there that everybody assumes are the leaders and your job is now to findyourself in that consideration set. That's a very different problem to...


everybody's been solving a problem this way and you have thetechnology, there's a totally new way of solving that same problem. Like itdepends on how much solution awareness there is, if your solution is a new one,or if it's at least similar enough to ones that exist out there, where it'smore about showing up as a leader amongst the rest of the pack. And I think theother problem is like, what problem are the sales team actually facing whenthey come into conversations? Because most of marketing's job should be solvingthose problems.


What we usually do is we solve what we think the problem is andwhat, what kind of a lot of marketing sales, sales led organizations do, whichis marketing's job is to get leads to sales. So of course marketing is going togenerate a ton of leads, but the problem they should be solving is what'smaking the sales conversations not happen and not succeed is it because you getin there and people are confused about what you do and we've seen that a ton oftimes where prospects get on a sales call. They filled out a demo and they'relike, Oh, I thought you did something completely different.


Well, that's a marketing problem that needs a very specificmarketing solution versus I like what you're doing, but I've never heard of youand therefore I don't trust you. I'm going to go with the ones that I've heardof. And a lot of it is just about like, well, you all look the same. So what'sthe difference? Well, we need to educate them on the differences. Like you gotto meet them where the problems are in the market. And the problem is marketingtends to solve all problems by getting more leads, whereas the problem might begetting more awareness.


and getting more understanding in the market. That's much, muchharder. And that divides your budget up into much different ways. So I thinkit's often addressed that problem and then back into what the marketing planshould be based off of that.


Will (31:19.694)

which is exactly what we try to do at Founder Video. I'm sure youguys do it really, it probably better way, but definitely, definitely. I mean,it's all about that. It's not, let's not get more leads, let's get less, butlet's get better leads. Leads are educated, leads that come to a demo, knowingwhat they're looking for and knowing what you're there for, right? I thinkApril Duffer does a really great work. I'm sure you know her. Yeah.


Liam Moroney (31:42.172)

Oh yeah.


Will (31:44.354)

This will go b2b sales pitch really great stuff there and I thinkum that work off of working with sales and doing the icp like really breakingit down clearly and Hooking up the positioning to that and actually working onsales pitches and trying them out in house and like, okay Let's let's get salesto try this and let's get sales to actually give us a pass on if this Messagingis actually working because they are in the field actually trying it right andthen let's implement that into our strategies whatnot I think that is


Liam Moroney (32:06.603)



Will (32:14.508)

a big part of the core problem there that a lot of the position isnot right. And, and, and as you were saying, right, we got to figure out ifyou're mature enough, if you could, how much solution awareness there is. Iloved that, uh, that phrase, cause that's, it's really important. Cause basedon that, you got to do more or less go to market strategy so that you can kindof, um,


uh minimize the difference of people that are not solution awareor the people that are solution aware and then take them in market all Thatstuff right? So it's really important to take a look at the core. I think Uhfundamentals there before starting with tactics and specifics and that typesand whatnot. Um Cool really great stuff there


Liam Moroney (32:39.149)



Liam Moroney (32:51.742)

to present.


Will (32:57.898)

So once you figure out where marketing dollars should be spent,how do you make sure that teams are aligned to ensure that executionexcellence? That when I saw it's a famous hashtag on LinkedIn, I was surprisedbecause I like the concept of it all. Right. Like how do you ensure that, thatthe processes are executed and smoothly and that everything brought somethingalignment and this idea, right. That everyone was once in their company to betrue.


Liam Moroney (33:24.529)

Yeah, this is a tough one because I think it's often not fully inthe control of marketing. The company has to understand what they thinkmarketing success looks like collectively. That starts at the leadership leveland works down. A lot of the time, marketing leaders, it is their job to tryand educate, but it ultimately starts there. Marketing needs to be seen as asolution to a specific problem. Once everyone's aligned on that, which I don'twant to oversimplify how difficult that can be.


then you build the metrics. And I think it's important to go inthat way because this is where the playbook style of marketing fails, where youtake the way other people measure marketing and you just use it in your ownorganization. But in reality, you have to decide, what is the timeline of thesethings? How quickly should you be seeing demo requests coming in? Depends verymuch on how mature your company is, mature your organization is, how muchexisting brand awareness you have. So a lot of it is about...


getting everyone to collectively agree what problems are we tryingto solve in marketing? And I think you can be very successful if you try andenter these conversations by saying, let's put metrics aside for a second. Ourjob, once we come out of this meeting, is to figure out the best ways tomeasure if we're succeeding at that. But before we get there, let's decide onwhat the problems are. And then once we've all collectively said, let's weighthem out. Most of our problem is brand awareness.


Some of our problem is we don't have enough people for the sales team to speak to, their outbound isn't successful anymore, whatever it might be. Then you can start to say, well, what is a balanced measurement framework for this look like? Because you should be trying to measure, are more people aware of you? And that could be as simple as, are people searching for your brand on Google? Is that a good way of measuring it? Are you hearing better feedback in the sales conversations on things like Gong calls? Are you getting more share of voice on social? Are your followers going up? Is your database getting bigger?


There's a million ways you could proxy that measurement, but at the end of the day, everyone has to be aligned to the fact that the goal isn't to get as many leads as possible, it's to get as much of the audience aware of us as possible and then be able to track that progress in terms of more people coming to the website, better quality people come to the website, better quality people coming into the sales conversations and better outcomes from those conversations. Those are the things that matter.

Will (35:40.302)

that in that context, what do you think about self-reported attribution? And most importantly at Don at scale.

Liam Moroney (35:47.833)

I think it is an important addition to the attribution conversation. It is not a replacement for it. And that's the bigger risk because I think it, what self-prod attribution can do is it can shine a light on the tactics that would never have otherwise shown up in your attribution software podcast being a really good example. There's just no real way to easily show that up beyond, oh, some gone calls have shown it, it gets mentioned.


The other problem with self-reported attribution, of course, is that there's a recency bias and there's just generally speaking kind of an overall bias too. People will pick out what they think was the thing that brought them in, but it might be the biggest thing that brought them in, but doesn't mean it's the only thing that brought them in. So it's kind of a, you know, I definitely think that, you know, a lot of what you see in the attribution tools, like the default things that marketing automation have, they are wildly unreliable. Like most people are not finding you from direct


traffic or organic search. That's just not realistically true. But it's also important to remember, is something's job in marketing to be directly attributable, or is it to be an assist to things that are directly attributable? A podcast is not a lead generation effort. It is a brand awareness and affinity effort. So you put it in a different box, and you say, we're not looking to have deals attributed to podcasts. The deals will come from.


the sales effort or the events that we attend where those conversations turn into an actual realistic conversation. So like it's, it's less about should everything be attributable and more what's people's job and what's the best way of finding out is it at least anecdotally or directionally work.


Will (37:23.57)

love that. It's


And then the next thing is setting the expectations clear and setting the boundaries of every strategies. Like you cannot put a podcast in this is going to give us leads or deals. Cause it's not a lead generation effort is a brand awareness and affinity effort. And you should measure it as such, right? Which is okay. Once we get the conversations from the mechanisms that are actually meant to give us conversations. Let's actually see if in those conversations, the podcast comes up as


Will (37:55.536)

before hopping into that conversation, right? Exactly.


Liam Moroney (37:57.361)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.


Will (38:01.858)

Sorry, I just muted myself. Uh, okay. Do you think, well, wealready, I think you're, you, you already answered this, but do you think teamsare overly focused on demand capture and marketing and sales mechanisms? Um, Ithink we, we already agreed on the fact that they are, but if you want to toucha little bit more on that.


Liam Moroney (38:22.333)

I think they're, yeah, I think it's about demand capture willalways be an important part of it. Cause if you're not trying to capture it,then you're just hoping that it will organically find its way to you, which isnever a great strategy. I think it's always about vetting how much of thedemand capture effort is really working and trying to sort of narrow it down tothe things that really actually drove the needle at the end of the day.


Will (38:44.086)

Yeah, not to say that you don't need demand capture because what'sthe point of generating demand if you don't capture it, of course, I think youneed both, but yeah, you just need a different balance than what we see mostcommonly these days, right? You mentioned attribution before and we weretalking about several-party attribution or SRA, sorry. Would you say that theB2B industry is way too obsessed with tech and tools for ROI attribution andwhatnot?


Liam Moroney (38:48.646)



Liam Moroney (39:12.649)

You know, I think we're actually slightly less so now than Iremember it being, as weird as that is to say. I, it feels like only maybe likefour or five years ago, I remember how maniacal data attribution was becoming.And you know, there was companies out there like, was it Lead Spring was one ofthem. There's a lot of these like, it wasn't AI at the time, it was machinelearning, but it was a lot of this like, we're gonna measure everything, we'regonna use all this machine learning, it's gonna be very black box. And I thinkwe were


pathologically pursuing measuring everything. And I think some ofthat has actually gone away a little bit because I think even things likecookies going away, a lot of the things like the opt-ins, GDPR, it became much,much harder to guarantee that you could get people to take a measurable action.So in a sense, we've gotten slightly less, maybe at least in the places thatI've been in, kind of like.


obsessed with measuring everything. We've accepted a lot of stuffcannot be measured. We've not gotten any better at needing to prove thatmarketing drove attribution. That is the bigger problem. There's still a badprecedent that everything you do in marketing should be measurable and shouldbe judged against the other things. Did the podcast generate more revenue thanthe lead generation efforts that you did on LinkedIn? Well, I can already tellyou which one's gonna win in that battle, and it's not a fair fight becauseit's not the right way to look at things.


It's more about understanding like, can you holistically measurethe effect of a marketing program? And I think we're still a ways away fromthat.


Will (40:47.626)

Yep. Agreed. I think Hockey Stack is doing a great job on this. Bythe way, you mentioned their report earlier and I think, I mean, I haven'ttried the tool itself because we're not their best clients, so to speak. But,um, um.


I'm still waiting for like some sort of collaboration betweenChris Walker and Hockey Stack to see what he does with it and see if heapproves it or not and what are his thoughts because he's You know, there's alot of other LinkedIn creators as well that talk a lot about data and backingup things with data but Chris Walker specifically has grown a lot these daysand I think he has a I mean his top voice, right and I and I think


that is good to be focused on data is good to take that technicalmedical, even approach to, to marketing and to sales. It's really great. Butthere are just some things that I think for now are not. And as you said,right, like you can look at a podcast and try to attribute revenue because it'snot the point. Like it's right. So yeah. Um,


Inside and I loved how you were saying right like four years agoit seemed like we were even in more of a rush to measure things and Look, Igotta be honest. I haven't been in for so long to actually say that I don'treally know But that's interesting to know like if we are moving away frombeing obsessively Trying to measure everything and I think there's a commonsentiment of people understanding that there are some motions that are notworth Trying to attribute revenue to that's really good to hear


So, okay, this is, this one is a big one. I don't understand anaudience and your IPC when jumping jumpstarting a demand gen approach orprogram from scratch.


Liam Moroney (42:37.973)

From scratch is a tough one. And I think it depends on whetherit's from scratch of an organization that hasn't really done much of anygo-to-market versus one that's been very partner-led, sales-led, investor-ledfor a number of times. So like a lot of early stage companies, we will come inwhere they have nothing and they say, we need to start shifting to a realmarketing motion. So I'll use that as an example. It's sometimes like you'llhave very little historical data where you'll say, well, where are your dealscoming from?


And the biggest question that you're asking is, is there anythingthat is a pattern that we can rely on or is it not quite there yet? So veryearly stage companies build a lot of their business through introductions. Theinvestors will introduce them to people. They'll introduce them to a partnerwho's also a part of that VC's portfolio and they'll partner with things. Orthe CEO knows people in the industry, which is usually a good thing and theybring them in. Those data points are not helpful for marketing because thoseare.


outliers, they are anomalies, they are not repeatable bymarketing. So a lot of it is starting to figure out, well, take all of thataside. What is actually the state of the industry? And some of this you canonly figure out by talking to the audience themselves, to the customersthemselves. What you really need to know is, do they know how to buy somethinglike this? And if so, what would be the things that would actually make themmake a decision? Like, are they even aware it exists? Do they?


And if they don't, how would they typically learn about somethinglike this existing? Because most of what marketing is trying to do is the ICPconversation first, I think is the important part. It's you have to narrow downlike who are the absolute perfect fit people. And that's a scary process for alot of companies to go through because it feels very, very constricting. Well,we can't go after too small a group of people because our time is massive. Butwhat often happens, going back to that whole early adopters conversation is


You target one audience really, really well. Early adopters fromslightly adjacent audiences will often look and go, oh, I could use that for mybusiness. And then you start to begin to expand it, but you still have to benarrow and you have to be focused. If you don't know exactly who you're talkingto and who you're not talking to, then you're never gonna be talking to anybodywith marketing. And that's a tough conversation to go through. And then fromthere, it's about, now we need to understand as best as we possibly can howthis audience learns about solutions.


Liam Moroney (44:56.949)

who they trust when it comes to decision making and where theyspend their time and where we can reach them and what space can we narrow thatinto. All of that comes from audience research and you can't do audienceresearch until you've picked an audience. And that is not anywhere near as easyas I think we would hope it is.


Will (45:16.562)

Or how do you, how do you make it? I don't want to say easier, buthow do you go through it in your case? Like I'm curious because. And let's sayyou don't have data points either. Let's say like you're, that's why I saidfrom scratch and I get it super hard. You're even probably don't work withcompanies that have are that early stage or that don't have enough data orwhatever, but


Let's imagine that like if a company has built a product that isreally great, whatever, but they don't have that market inside of what, whatyou said right there, right? What is the state of the industry? And they're notclear on their ICP. They're not clear on their best customer. Neither they cando a revenue analysis to figure that out because they haven't been in marketfor so long, right? Uh, for that, for long enough to, to actually do it. So whywould you say to that? Like, how do you, how do you, where can you startpicking indicators that can lead you through that?


Let's take Tough Path, right?


Liam Moroney (46:10.281)

And I think some of it is you just have to make as educated aguess as you possibly can. If you build a product, you have to be somewhatself-aware about who that product is the best fit for. Maybe you don't haveenterprise-grade controls. Well, you're probably not going to be selling to theenterprise first and foremost because ICP evolves over time. That's animportant thing to note, that you're not picking someone today that will not besomeone tomorrow. So a lot of it is figure out who you can readily sell to.


pronounced problem today for a solution like this, but who alsohas a buying style that would allow them to buy something like this. Someindustries will not buy something that isn't HIPAA compliant or SOC 2compliant. Well, relegate those right away. Who are the people that are a good,good fit, not just based on your ability to solve their problem, but on yourability to get them to buy it. And some of that is educated bets. Some of thatis, you would hope in an early stage company that...


you have a good enough idea of who can and has bought it already,because otherwise why did you start this business? So I think there's a littlebit of that. But it's about like pick the easiest target today and really focuson being a winner for them. And then you, but also have the knowledge that willexpand as you succeed.


Will (47:28.31)

So true. So true. That's, that's, and you made such a good pointright there. Because people, I think there's, so, and it's normal, right? Butthere, there's such a big tendency to overthink it a lot and like, Oh, why do Ipick and I don't have enough attributes and like how I'm going to speak andlike resonate deep enough with them so that I can increase sales velocity andall that. And then you, if you put it funding into that and quarter quotas andcan get really, really stressful, right? But, um,


I think what you said right there, and it's so reassuring, it'slike, Hey, it can change. Like it doesn't need to be set in stone and itactually will evolve over time. And maybe this quarter you have certainattributes and maybe by two quarters later, you need to start tweaking becauseyou, you know, get more data from your sales team or whatever. And, and, butthat's the, that's the beauty of business too, I think. Right. And this day andage, like the adaptability and how fast enough can you iterate.


Not only your product but everything surrounding it right themarketing the sales process the customer success processes everything, right?So yeah, really key insight right there um, I want to talk about your linkedinstrategy, too, um, Which is I think uh a lot of people might be might bewondering too. I mean a lot of people not like this podcast is Listened by alot of people yet. But um, no, i'm just i'm just curious because I think


Your videos are really great. I think you have Um really coolbackgrounds that are parent disrupt at least in my feed And I love that Um,like nature whatnot. It's really authentic So I want first I wanted to ask youhow that came to be what one day you woke up decided Okay, let's start dovideos in nature. Whatever, you know, like how that came to be and let's talkmore about that later. But yeah


Liam Moroney (49:17.221)

Yeah, it's a it was an accidental thing. I won't pretend itwasn't. And I didn't think it was going to be a lasting part of what I woulddo. But there's a couple of parts to it. I think first I leaned into video fora couple of reasons. One was that I have a background in photography, so it wasjust personally interesting to me to try and do this. So I was pickingsomething that I enjoyed. And I remember talking to Rand Fishkin a couple ofyears ago and I asked him a question about like, if you're picking content as anew company, where do you go? And he goes,


create the content you're gonna do lasting. If you're gonna beable to sustain it, do it that way. And I like doing the videos. So a lot of itis personally, I liked having to learn Premiere Pro, I liked having to figureout how to do editing. So it was selfishly really interesting for me to do it.And I hoped that the end result would be interesting for other people. Theoutdoors part was just a complete, it was meant to be a one-off thing thatseemed fun at the time. I made one video because like all of that is very nearto my house.


So I thought, you know, it'd be funny if I made a video where Ibrought my camera outdoors again, because it was fun for me to do. And thewhole idea was I was going to make one video and was video on patterninterruption. I thought, you know what, if I put a video out there where yousee trees, that'll probably get attention and people go, why is this guyfilming outdoors when nobody else seems to do that? And it worked really well.And people made jokes of like, Oh, hope this is a recurring series. I'm like,Oh, you know, that'd be funny. So I tried making a couple more and it just sortof.


it was received well and it was fun. And it was like, I think it'sa good, it's, it's fun for me to do. And it seemed to kind of, it made me standout at the end of the day, you know, like whether it's Tim Davidson cuttingfruit or whether it's whatever, like if you have something that helps you lookdifferent to the other people that are out there, that's always going to be anadvantage. And I had the advantage that I have the equipment. I have theoutdoors near my house. It only made sense to take advantage of what I had atmy disposal.


Will (51:12.762)

Beautiful man, I would imagine that was kind of like the storylike so like I thought whatever like it came up to Me because I don't know Itried and then it worked and then you know, I kept on it Tim Davidson with thefruit. That's awesome man. Like the clips from Tim as well like memes as well Ilove the memes and be to be like just funny videos that make your day a littlebit less stressful, right? Yes, some days they are and yeah really love thatand


Liam Moroney (51:34.824)



Will (51:39.574)

Cause how long have you been doing those videos? I don't know.


Liam Moroney (51:43.225)

Um, I actually was funny. I was looking back through variousvideos that I had posted and pinned on my channel. I didn't realize I'd beendoing them for as long as I had, but I think I'd been making some form ofvideos for probably like three or four years, but very sporadically. And mostof them were indoor ones where I was just upgrading my webcam software andmaking sort of videos where it was just at my desk. And I think the onesoutdoors, I think I started those probably maybe, I want to say like August oflast year. So they're not that old really.


Will (52:12.318)

Mmm, not that long ago. Okay. Okay, cuz I think I remember seeingone of those first ones, right? And which there was still a lot of all andpeople were counting. Yeah Yeah, and honestly forgive me as well on this one Ishould have learned it before but I don't know where you're from But thatbackground like it looks beautiful. I don't know where you live or anything.You don't need to say it, but


Liam Moroney (52:20.985)

Oh yeah, people are tracking the season changes.


Liam Moroney (52:34.525)

Yeah, it's funny people have been trying to guess that I'm aboutan hour outside of New York City, but I'm just far enough from New York Citythat now the nature starts to creep in. So like slightly north of New York istrees everywhere. So I'm lucky that way.


Will (52:40.926)

Mmm. Oh god.


Will (52:47.002)

Yeah, East Coast America. I think David Gerard made this point theother day about the story behind exit five name And how is that in Vermont andwhatnot and the way he described it? I told him the car is like man, you'llmake me it made me want to go there like it seems so Now I don't know. I likethat the natural landscape of the Northeast coast of America. I think it'sreally beautiful anyway, um


Liam Moroney (52:53.695)

I saw that.


Will (53:12.842)

So that's that LinkedIn strategy. And that was the last questionthat I had for you, but, um, regarding like to dive deeper into it.


Have you been because a lot of people might think okay this guymakes videos outdoors and it's really cool I don't have outdoors background butI can start doing video and I wonder how he's able to run his company and dovideo Consistently and all that stuff right like you know what I mean? So, um,yeah, just tell us about that Like how have you built if you have a workflowwhich I like I always if you have one so


Liam Moroney (53:44.273)

I'm going to be very honest that I have what is probably one ofthe most inefficient workflows and I'll put my hands up and say it should beand could be much better. I sort of I've become good at doing the editingquickly, so it doesn't actually take as much time as you might think. And Idon't have to travel as far as you might think to get to those locations. SoI'm not it's not that much of a commitment. What I wish I did better is what Iknow Chris Bogue has talked about all the time, which is batching videos, whereif you're going to make them make four or five of them in one go. And thenyou've got a.


like a big repository. I don't do that. I kind of just do them ata whim, but I'm fortunate right now that it is working and it is enjoyable andI kind of take them and I enjoy them as I do them. So I'm not as interested inmaking it operationalized as I probably would do otherwise, but I'm lucky thatI work remotely. So I've got that on my side where I don't have to try and workit around a long commute.


Will (54:37.466)

Yeah remote work for the win. It's the future. Of course. I meanit's already today like I think since covid It changed so much right but umInteresting so you'll have a workflow but okay. That's that's interesting Imean you admitted that is not as efficient as it could be which is which isinteresting But I think part of the reason why it's so authentic in a lot ofcases is because of that I think there's a tendency and i've seen this myselftoo like the moment I started to um


Liam Moroney (54:54.161)

Nah, not at all.


Will (55:06.502)

operationalize or like, you know, build a really, really robustworkflow around my LinkedIn content. I find myself not having the time or notbeing able to, like, I'm not allocating as much time as I, as I used to, toideation and thinking about new stuff. Cause now I plan the week ahead and so Ijust need to schedule the videos and whatnot. And then the best insights youmight lose from that, you know, in a lot, in some cases.


Liam Moroney (55:30.005)

I agree. I agree. And I think people got way too obsessed over thelast couple of years of trying to beat the algorithm on LinkedIn. And it wasabout post every single day. And so it became about how much content can Iproduce. And there were people saying like, I spend two hours on a Sunday and Iuse chat GPT and I come away with 27 pieces of content. I doubt the qualityrepresents the volume. I just don't believe that that's the case. I wouldrather put out a video every


few days without really any cadence, but know that at least I'mproud of the ones that I'm putting out, then say I put out a video every singleday and boast about how efficient I am by doing it.


Will (56:07.902)

Yeah. I mean, not to say I'm not proud of the videos that I post.Got to make that clear. Like, of course I am, but because I think they're, I mean they're taking from long form pieces of content or taking from interviews that we're doing now with the podcast and the guided interviews themselves that we do in the house, like I do with my partner. So yeah, but, but still, I think, I think, I think on top of that, like it's cool to build that it's cool to have an efficient workflow, whatever. Like that's great. Cause it ensures you have a baseline that is perhaps higher than the average, right?

Liam Moroney (56:16.552)


Will (56:37.194)

But on top of that, you should never stop to be in their indie platform, like actually, you know, consuming other people's content and letting yourself spark your mind and actually come up with better new ideas. Cause the only way to get better ideas is to, to think more and, and to come up with more ideas, right. Then you would think so. Yeah. I mean, that's so obvious, but anyway, um, okay. Really great stuff, Liam. It's been a pleasure to have you. I think we can leave it here. Uh, 

Liam Moroney (56:56.544)

Yep. Completely agree.

Will (57:05.918)

We're not marking the one hour fully pod, but I think it's goodenough still. We talked on a lot of topics. You've been really efficient withyour answers too. So, but yeah, either way, if anyone still is listening atthis point, I just wanted to say like, you know, where can people find youapart from your LinkedIn, of course, and just your website and you know, whatyou guys do, what kind of companies can you help if someone that is listeningto this might be interested or whatever.


Liam Moroney (57:32.981)

Sure, yeah. So apart from LinkedIn, you can check out the websiteon stor And if you're a B2B SaaS company, especially ones who have systemsetups like marketing automation tools and CRMs, and you're trying to runcomplex programs, we might well be a solution.


Will (57:51.054)

Awesome. Well, it's been a pleasure to have you, Liam and we'll behopefully having you sooner rather than later. And we'll see, we'll be seeingyou on LinkedIn and the feed and comments and whatnot and yeah, see you around.It's been a pleasure. Gonna stop the recording now and just.


Liam Moroney (58:00.55)

I appreciate having me. Thank you.